Thanks to DredSkay for the link.
via Forcas Terrestres.
Why are recon vehicles getting heavier than APC's world wide? The Brazilians are doing it with this vehicle and the Brits did it with their new tracked ride.
Additionally it appears that "families of vehicles" are popular as are mobile gun systems. The Japanese are producing one, the Italians have had them forever, the US Army adopted one and now the Brazilians are on the band wagon....are tanks really that expensive to operate?
This program bears watching. As someone said, the Brazilians are to be praised for doing what the US Army and Marine Corps seem unable to do. Actually get a vehicle into production and out to their forces.
via Forcas Terrestres.
The design of a new armored vehicle reconnaissance (VBR) for the Army will be developed from the next year in Minas Gerais. The new combat vehicle begins to be developed in 2015 and five years should be delivered the first cars. It is expected that the same line where today are manufactured the armored personnel transport medium wheel (VBPT-MR) Guarani, in Sete Lagoas is used. The Guarani hundredth produced in Minas will be delivered to the Army today.While availing the same platform, the vehicle will be faster, have reinforced armor and heavier artillery, thus enabling it to be used for reconnaissance. It will be the substitute of Cascavel, manufactured by Engesa from the 1970s and used in the Gulf War.Interesting on a couple of levels.
The car will use much of the parts and systems used in the first model. Among the adaptations to meet the new feature is the inclusion of a 105mm cannon, while the MR-VBTP the firepower of artillery was 30 mm or used machine guns point 50 and 762 . VBR will have capacity for three or four soldiers, the driver being the only occupant of the inside of the tower and the rest - the captain, and the shooter, if manual, a helper. Along the crew will be a basket which presents all the ammunition. The VBTP-MR has room for 11 people.
Why are recon vehicles getting heavier than APC's world wide? The Brazilians are doing it with this vehicle and the Brits did it with their new tracked ride.
Additionally it appears that "families of vehicles" are popular as are mobile gun systems. The Japanese are producing one, the Italians have had them forever, the US Army adopted one and now the Brazilians are on the band wagon....are tanks really that expensive to operate?
This program bears watching. As someone said, the Brazilians are to be praised for doing what the US Army and Marine Corps seem unable to do. Actually get a vehicle into production and out to their forces.
Because it is Iveco that is producing it and in consequence it uses Italian doctrine.
ReplyDeleteRecon with 105mm? I can't get the logic. Too heavy and overkill for logic. Noticed and recognized recon team is dead as a rule. And it is hard to be unnoticed with 105 mm gun in action. More of this, cannon on wheels is not a good idea IMHO, wheels mean worst stability then chain tracks, it means in turn worst accuracy – the main parameter for high caliber canons imho.
ReplyDeleteFirst I would like to say to Meriv that the Brazilian Army officers are not imbeciles to design an build in Brazil a vehicle based on Italian doctrine. The VBTP-MR Guarani was designed against Brazilian Army requirements and was entirely based on the ROB (Requisitos Operacionais Basicos) nº 09/99 which defined it.
ReplyDeleteI would say that the name of recon vehicle is a misnomer. The Esquadrão de Cavalaria Mecanizado (Mechanized Cavalry Troop) of the Brazilian Army, is foreseen not only as a recon unit. but also as a unit to clear the advance and guard the flanks of the main units.
As for the stability of the platform, I would say that it won't be worst than the one of the Stryker M1128 MGS.
The superstructure of the VBR-MR (The recon vehicle) will be lower than the one used for the APC version.
Reg
2 Reginaldo Bacchi
Delete@ Brazilian Army officers are not imbeciles to design@
Sorry, It’s my fault, I just have shown (without my direct will) my bu-ga-ga attitude (very popular among Russian barbarians) to all this anti-Papuans devices. And I’ve missed standard application of “recon” to so called “wheels tanks” in western military tradition. This time I have no intent to piss off anybody.
Maybe for Brasilia this conception is a right decision – I have no any appropriate incoming info about Brazilian conditions.
I’ve read some in Wiki. What I’ve got:
@amphibious capabilities@ good
@modular design, allowing the incorporation of different turrets, weapons, sensors and communications systems onto the same carriage.@ very good. No doubt, my respect.
@Compared to the model in use today by the Brazilian Army, the new project brings advantages such as upgraded armor protection, increased mobility, increased range, independent hydropneumatic suspension, increased protection against mines, better ergonomics, air conditioning, brake system with double disc and ABS, GPS, automatic detection and extinguishing of fire, night operation capability as standard and laser detection system.@ according to all this rants this vehicle is a challenger of global leader ship in its class.
But anyway I beg you to ask some:
1. Which caliber (and type of bullets/shells) the armor can survive?
2. What about underpressure possibility for tires?
3. Is there possibility to use anti-HEAT “knives|grids” and|or Explosive Reactive armour?
4. Is there possibility to keep moving with one-two wheels, being torn off with explosion?
5. What is mine resistance in details?
6. Any battle practice (desire to play new toy is explainable)?
7. What about additional protection of left side with its “window-alike” weak zone?
And a general question – what “ Italian doctrine” means in application to Brazilians reality?
My dear info-infanterie,
DeleteFirst i would like to say that i can not understand why you said it was your fault!!!
Second I have to thank you for the very kind words you said about the VBTP-MR Guarani. I worked during 13 years at the ENGESA factory, which designed and built the EE-9 Cascavel and EE-11 Urutu, predecessors to Guarani, and which will be replaced by it. I can take the firm position that there is no comparison between the old vehicles and the new, in its several versions (at the moment 10 are foreseen). The new one, is much, much better.
Third i will try to answer your questions:
1st question - Which caliber (and type of bullets/shells) the armor can survive?
All around protection against 7.62X51 mm AP ammunition, fired at an angle between 0 and 30° at a distance of 30 meters of the vehicle, against splinters of 155 HE grenade detonated 80 meters away, and against explosion of mines with up to 6 kg of HE content, at any wheell station.
Must be capable of receiving aditional armor capable of all around protection against 12.7 mm AP ammunition fired with 0° angle at a distance of 100 metres of the vehicle.
Must be capable of receiving spall liners in the the crew and troop compartments, to protect personnel against splinters caused by 12.7 mm AP ammunition fire.
For the Recon vehicle (or better: MGS?) the aditional armor must be able to protect against 14,5 mm API ammunition fired at 0º at 200 meters from the vehicle.
2nd question - What about underpressure possibility for tires?
Tire pressure will be entirely controllable by driver.
3rd question - Is there possibility to use anti-HEAT knives | grids” and|or Explosive Reactive armour?
Do you mean those fences that were first used against RPGs, in riverine Monitors in Vietnam, and later on Strykers in Iraq? If so, the Brazilian version has been developed by a vendor and will be available for later use, if required.
4th question - Is there possibility to keep moving with one-two wheels, being torn off with explosion?
I have no information on this.
5th question - What is mine resistance in details?
As crew protection against IED/mines the seats are suspended, and the entire structure is over 2 rails to give space for blast pressure to vent out. IVECO personnel told me that this features was first used in the front parto f the Superav, and on the Guarani (which is a newer design) firther developed.
6th question - Any battle practice (desire to play new toy is explainable)?
None.
7th question - What about additional protection of left side with its “window-alike” weak zone?
The inside of this área has the same armor has on the rest of the vehicle.
As a comment for the question of aditional armor: if you look closely on the photos, you will able to discern pins which will be used to fix the armor in place. All vehicles will have those pins installed as standard feature.
And to close - You wrote “...And a general question – what “ Italian doctrine” means in application to Brazilians reality? ...”.
I have’t the faintest idea. Perhaps Meriv, who first wrote about this, will be able to answer.
Reg
Well bachi, about battle experience. Perhaps we will see some. http://www.forte.jor.br/2014/09/27/eua-querem-engajamento-do-brasil-contra-estado-islamico/
Deleteto dear Reginaldo Bacchi
Delete@I worked during 13 years at the ENGESA factory, which designed and built the EE-9 Cascavel and EE-11 Urutu@
Mmmm. Business for a real man. My deep respect.
Reginaldo, not following italian doctrine? You are saying that the Guarani hasn't been develop from the SuperAv that was built under Italian Army requirements? That being built by Iveco doesn't influence it at all?
DeleteThe fact of calling it Guarani is higlly offensive thinking of what you did to Paraguay male population or how you treat your native population.
By italian doctrine I was meaning the reason that brought us the Centauro, the need for a fast response vehicle to defend our coast. You can transfer the same to Brazil geography, you don't have a coast but a geography that is adverse to heavy tanks, plus the lack of a railroad system makes even harder the transport of a tracked vehicle. The fact you made it amphibius transform the amazonian river in a giant highway.
the 105mm turret is all brazil needs to confront the "possible opponents", after all the only true continental threat to Brazil is Chile but geography limits them, Argentina is totally dependent from Brazil economy, Bolivia underpopulated like Ecuador, Peru/Colombia/Venezuela all needs to cross the jungle and in consequence the Guarani is the perfect solution for that enviroment.
I almost forgot another reason of choosing the 105mm is the same as the Centauro one, you can use all the ammo stored for the Leo1
DeleteMeriv, many thanks for your interesting message,
DeleteNow I understand what you mean by Italian Doctrine!!!
Again I have to say that the NFBR (New Family of Armored Wheeled Vehicles) has absolutely nothing to do with this doctrine.
This famly was foreseen to equip 2 type of units:
1. The Mechanized Infantry Batalions to be created by conversion of about 24 Motorized Infantry Batalions in existence;
2. The Esquadrões de Cavalaria Mecanizados, and of course the Regimentos de Cavalaria Mecanizados (each with 3 Esquadrões). Those units were first deployed in the 70s. Please, note that the Brazilian esquadrão, corresponds to the US Cavalry troop.
On these esquadrões and regimentos, it will replace the EE-9 Cascavel (6 em each esquadrão) and the EE-!! Urutu (also 6 in each esquadrão: 3 as APCs, and 3 as 81 mm mortar carrier).
When ENGESA closed operations, I decided to became a defence writer and started writing for the Defesa & Tecnologia magazine.
One of my first articles was about the creation of the Stryker Brigades, and on this article I had the oportunity to describe the Brigata Blindata (created in the 90s), the organization of the Italian Army with regiment equipped entirely with Centauro Tank destroyers.
Since almost the entire Italian Army was concentrated in the Alps, the several Brigatas Blindatas (if I am not wrong 5 were foreseen) would be stationed along the Italian peninsula to face any eventual landing from Warpac Forces.
No regiment is foreseen currently in the Brazilian Army similar to the Centauro Tank destroyer regiment. This is a mistake in my opinion.
The technical people of the Brazulian Army studied the matter of the Urutu replacement (which was the most urgently needed vehicle of the NFBR) and issued a request for a company to associate with the Army in designing and building it.
IVECO won the contexto and was chosen.
Please, note that IVECO already had a factory in Brazil (State of Minas Gerais).
I hope my answer clarifies this matter.
Reg
Please, instead of: contexto
Deleteread: contest.
Sorry
Reg
The Abrams is that expensive to operate, in terms of fuel and maintenance. The Leopard 2s and Challenger 2s are more cost effective, but still expensive compared to a light tank turret on an APC chassis. When the war turns to "forced entry" that is the role for main battle tanks. For anything else, a tank turret on an APC chassis will do just fine. Think of this as military forces around the world change their mix from fighting nation states in traditional alliances to fighting irregulars as part of regional security.
ReplyDeleteIrregulars are regularly running around in MBT-class armor?
DeleteProblem with putting an anti-tank gun on a scout vehicle is that they'll tend to want to use it –instead of scouting! Really, it just needs to be able to threaten other scouting vehicles.
Solomon:
ReplyDeleteBetween 1980 and 1981 drove mutos Rattlesnake and Urutu between the barracks where he served in Sao Vicente-SP - 2nd Battalion of Hunters - and the Port of Santos.
You can not imagine how much these vehicles are docile, soft, looks like you're driving a limo!
They are extremely agile and has an amazing autonomy, and electronic exchange has Diesel engine, can go days with no flat tire problem.
The tool boxes and other household equipment on each vehicle were insane.
You could mount two workshops with that material, there was everything you can imagine.
:-)
Armored is a beautiful thing.
ReplyDeleteAre ugly when the other side has GRAD.
Formerly were called Katyusha.
Link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQCaqGF9UVo
Another interesting video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mF5JpCzERU
:-)